Toast

[JAMES 3528-old]

You ever notice that when law enforcement decides to make toast out of the bad guy that the fire department never puts water on the bad guys house when they torch it. Look at Waco and the idiot that shot the cop just the other day in California.

They were putting the water on the neighbors house but not his. They were just letting it burn. I know they don`t want to go charging into a house where a moron is with a gun but they had trucks their that could throw water over two houses and it was obvious the guy was dead.

Around here and other places if you run over a frog and stop, they will send out a ambulance, 3 fire trucks and a helicopter.

They always shoot into the house those gas grenades that burn like a match head and then they go Ooops, like it was an accident.
Can`t they find a brand of gas grenade that does not do that.

If the guy in the house had shot your wife or kid, they would call in this special negotiating team and send him in some coffee.
That guy that killed his family just a week ago is probably eating steak and eggs in jail right now.

It`s just beginning to look like to me that if you kill one kind of person, like what happened at Waco and other places you don`t go to trial and they love to shoot in the gas grenades that they know is going to burn down the place and like I said when it is your wife or kids the guy ends up in jail eating steak and eggs.

[diceman]

that the FBI and ATF were at fault in Waco. You are starting to sound like a militia guy or something. Do you feel bad that Timmy boy was just gassed? I don't. If it wasn't for the FBI and ATF we would have all kinds of nutty hate groups plotting the demise of our country, the russian mafia is trying to move in right now and the Arabs would love for the feds to ease up. I say let em burn.
See, us democrats ain't all pussys.

[CECIL1]

WACO WAS A MAJOR TEST. TO SEE WHAT THE GOVERMENT COULD DO TO CITIZENS, WITHOUT STARTING A REVOLUTION.
FOUND OUT THEY COULD KILL ALL OF US THEY WANT TO.

[JAMES 3528-old]

Because you do sometimes think like a pussy!

And you are advancing an agenda by saying "I hope you are not implying ". Like a bitter old woman, my Mother in-law in fact!

I said I merle have started noticing something which is true. If your child had been at either one of those places do you think that the ATF or FBI would of checked to see how you feel about it before intentionally torching those places. And then saying it was an accident because of a gas grenades. Why don`t you go back and read the different way they handle things I wrote about when a cop gets killed as when one of our kids do. You said nothing about that. Do you think I was taking up for the scum?

No you can`t have a high speed chase any more or blast the guy with a shot gun when you get the chance. But if a cop or Fed gets shot you can burn the house down with out knowing who else is inside. That is all I was saying. My point was not about any of the Horse shit you wrote, You are starting to remind me of someone over at HVAC-talk, that after a 5 pages, comes on for the first time and ask "Have you checked your filter"

Watch the news for a while and you may see my point which did not have a damn thing to do with the Russian Mafia. The ridiculous point you did not make could be easily challenged by asking you where the hell do you think the Italian Mafia or the Irish Mafia has been for the last 100 years? You always reply to social issues with the same Ted Kennedy BS until it hits close to home. Do you think that if your brother had been lost at sea in a small plane with his wife, that the US Navy Atlantic Fleet would of been looking for them and the burial at sea would of been aboard one of their ships.

You see, that is why I am a Republican. I think, there fore I am.

[beb]

But when I was in the MC the Company CO had a asked if we would all take our liberty in Tejuania cause 2 Marines from our company got put in jail the previous weekend and those mexican dicks were holding them hostage. After we tore the town up a bit the let them out real fast. Man was that fun!
Chill out james before you blow a gasket.

[JAMES 3528-old]

I am pretty chilled. I guess I am cursed with a great awareness.

I am just very idiot-aware.

[CECIL1]

HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE JAMES. HOWEVER I AGREE 100%. MUST BE SOME GOOD MARINES AFTER ALL.

[JAMES 3528-old]

I was in the Airforce Cecil but their are a lot of good Marines. If you think this is deep ya ought to see the private area. :)

[diceman]

sound like milita guys to me. The gov, makes many mistakes but waco was not one of them. Norm or Dave or whatever that assholes real name is was at fault. They set the fires and kept the children hostage. They fired on the feds first and had quite an arsenal in there. If they wanted to have their cult, which consisted of child abuse, not paying any debts, stockpiling arms and etc. they should have bought an island somewhere and then no one would care. I can't believe you guys are so anti government. In the 60's, if you were anti-gov. all the rednecks and right wingers used to say, America, love it or leave it, remember that? What happened, role reversal or what?

[jmac00]

dice, what, you want the goverment running your life. Not me, the ATF, is a little out-of-control. Ruby Ridge for example, waco, for another. If the ATF would have just left those people alone, the goverment would not have spent 140 million dollars burning down a insignificant little complex. The ATF could have done several differant things before blowing in there with guns drawn.
Those idiots went in, even when they ( atf ) KNEW, that divid ding-dong knew they where coming. How stupid, and arrogant is that, they put there own people in jepordy, for what??
to take guns away from a bunch of nut cases, that where not bothering anyone. This is ( or was ) a free country, at what point do you as a citizen, let the goverment run your life?
Now, in NY we can't use our cell fones while driving----big deal----what about the moron reading the paper while driving, the girl in her Benz appling makeup, the teenagers shooting the shit whils driving. all of these are goning to cause an accident, eventually. A classic example of the US goverment protecting us from us. GUN CONTROL, ooohhh yea, heres a good idea, pass as many useless laws as possible, lets control as many law abiding citizens as possible, cause we can't control criminals anyway, so we will just restrict guns to the people that use them legally everyday.
obviously, as a soceity we need some laws to keep order, the question is, at what point is it intrusion??? c-ya

[JAMES 3528-old]

First, thank Jmac00 for displaying a little common sense here. I just pointed out the difference with how the government works.

If Dice was not still living that age of Aquarius BS he talks then he would of seen this also. It ain`t got nothing to do with this

" you both
sound like milita guys to me."

It sounds like to me that a few people are relying on Government to take care of them which is pretty much how (with out going back into politics) one of the political parties in this country works.

I guess I am just privy to how the Government works having worked for them and living in a town where the ATF and other agencies train. You are right Jmacoo they are out of control. I work at this place in the past. Their students get drunk and tear up their rooms and act like they are gods. They keep it quiet and send the tax payers the bill. Three of the agents shot at Waco trained here. The Sheriff of the town said point blank that he would go out there and get David and the Feds said no, This is our show.
Dice, if you think the Government is a bove all this and won`t plant a story to justify what they do, then look what they (US NAVY) did to that Sailor aboard the ship where the 16 inch gun exploded and killed all of those sailors a few years back. Instead of taking the heat for it, they said a Sailor aboard committed suicide because of a homo relationship with another sailor which they had to admit was bull shit. The Goverment eat their own Dice. They would not have a problem eating you.

That Redneck shit is a little dated. I remember my first trip to Detroit pretty much proved to me that you ain`t got no reason to sling that shit around. If I lived up their I would have a lot to be modest about. Then their are all the pale white people from up there walking down our Beaches with their white socks pulled up to their knees. I would rather watch a sea gull pull the guts out of a fish or a dog take a huge dump on the Beach.

[maverick]

You ever catch a glimpse of a fat European in a Speedo? Give me the white socks.

[diceman]

what if those wonderful cults were right next door to you. You wouldn't care? If they were building bombs, stockpling large amounts of ammunition and lethal firepower, you wouldn't care? Abusing children and God know what else? Do you know how many people they stiffed on unpaid bills, I guess we should just leave them alone. If they were your neighbors, don't tell me you wouldn't be freaking and afraid to let your kids out. I don't want the gov. telling me how to live, like I said before in my other posts. But thank God someone like the FBI and ATF are keeping the kooks and kook groups under control. They make mistakes, no doubt. I wouldn't want to make those tough decisions, like Ruby Ridge or Waco, and granted they turned out bad, but hey, sometimes shit happens when you defy laws and try to think you can do whatever you want. But for every one of those, there are thousands of others you don't read about, where una-bombers are stopped and hate groups are monitored, and psychotic assholes are taken off the streets. I have no fear of the FBI or ATF. If you want to worry about someone looking over your shoulder, it's big business you should worry about. they monitor your credi card sales, internet, and etc. All to make money off you, that's what bothers me more than the fed. gov.

[diceman]

I don't want the gov. taking care of me but when I buy food or drink water or buy prescrition drugs or drive on the highway, it's nice to know that certain things are monitored for quality control.
Business left totally to themselves would be greedy enough to risk public safety to make more money. Without government we would have anarchy and that would be the end of society, it would be like "Road Warriors." There is much in the gov that I don't agree with, for sure. But we have the best country in the world by far, I have been to to others, and we ain't perfect but I ain't gonna knock it like you guys are.

[JAMES 3528-old]

Dice
Now you are sounding like me when you are hitting on all cylinders in the above statements. You just need to weed out all the BS.
It ain`t the Government that protects you. It is the rule of law. And it ain`t like road warriors out their because I have a 45 auto and a couple of AR 15`s and some more and respect the law.
Your preaching to the choir when you try to tell me about government. I have lifted off the ground in their Airplanes that could lift your house up and a few more like it and fly them to Alaska or Central America with everthing from bombs too food for starving people. Don`t preach to me about knocking this Government. I paid my dues and Jefferson and John Hancock said I could speak freely.
I think Jefferson said something like" A little revolution now and then is good for Government"
I know what this country does good and I know what it does bad. What it does bad is treat it`s own citizens worse than a illegal walking across the Rio Grande.
I don`t worry about someone making bombs next to me because I live near the biggest concentration of nuke bombs and missiles in the world and just like with the hemp problem, they ain`t gonna find all the bomb factories or the hemp fields.

What ever happened to your State having rights and protecting you?

[CECIL1]

WEEK ONE; THEY HAVE AUTOMATIC WEAPONS. THEIR OWN PLANT SAID NO. THEY HAD THE PARTS, BUT WERE NOT USED.
WEEK TWO: THEY ARE GROWING POT. PLANT SAID NO. DAVID DID NOT ALLOW IT.
WEEK THREE: CHILD ABUSE. NEVER WILL KNOW. THEY SAW TO THAT.
IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO HAVE THE PARTS TO MAKE AUTOMATIC WEAPONS. IT IS ONLY ILLEGAL, WHEN YOU INSTALL THE PARTS AND DO NOT PAY YOUR TAX. YOU CAN BUY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS ANYWHERE. JUST PAY THE $250.00.
WHETHER DAVID WAS RIGHT OR WRONG IS NOT THE POINT. THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS ARE A INTERNATIONALY RECONIZED FAITH. IT WAS ALOS THEIR HOME. IF THEY CAN DO IT TO THEY, THEY CAN TAKE YOU OUT ALSO.
AS A MAN SAID TO AN FBI AGENT, IN MY STORE, "WE DID NOT DESTROY HITLER, JUST FOR THIS GOVERMENT TO TAKE HIS PLACE."

[diceman]

James and I can argue our points of view and I respect his opinion
and hope he respects mine as well. We don't have to agree on everything because if evryone did that, things would never change or get better. However, I can't even begin to believe you would stand up for David Koresh, although you must know that is not his real name either, and you surely don't think that cults like that, led by lunatics like Jim Jones who had his group commit mass suicide, are OK. Would you be glad if your kid ran off and joined one? I think not. The feds may have made mistakes in the final days of Waco, although the cultists brought that on themselves, but please don't try to tell me how great that Koresh guy was. He was a disgusting phoney with mental problems who seduced the weak of mind into an illusion of some everlasting glory so he could somehow elevate himself as their leader. If there is one thing I can not stand, it is guys like that who prey on weak people using religion as a platform for their own gain. Even big organized religons are sometimes guilty of this, but at least they have good intentions and legimately help people a majority of the time. I certainly hope James at least agrees with me on this. If not, I give up and will retreat to my cave.

[JohnnyB]

Originally posted by diceman
James and I can argue our points of view and I respect his opinion
and hope he respects mine as well. We don't have to agree on everything because if evryone did that, things would never change or get better. However, I can't even begin to believe you would stand up for David Koresh, although you must know that is not his real name either, and you surely don't think that cults like that, led by lunatics like Jim Jones who had his group commit mass suicide, are OK. Would you be glad if your kid ran off and joined one? I think not. The feds may have made mistakes in the final days of Waco, although the cultists brought that on themselves, but please don't try to tell me how great that Koresh guy was. He was a disgusting phoney with mental problems who seduced the weak of mind into an illusion of some everlasting glory so he could somehow elevate himself as their leader. If there is one thing I can not stand, it is guys like that who prey on weak people using religion as a platform for their own gain. Even big organized religons are sometimes guilty of this, but at least they have good intentions and legimately help people a majority of the time. I certainly hope James at least agrees with me on this. If not, I give up and will retreat to my cave.


Just one more thing I'd like to point out is If I remember corectly he was raping some of the little girls in the camp too. What saddens me the most about that whole thing was the kids getting burnt up.

[JAMES 3528-old]

A couple of things about Waco and then I am done.

What I believe


I believe the Sheriff could of got the job done, just like he said but they would not let him do it.

I don`t believe the story about the kids being raped because like the example I used with the ships 16 inch gun blowing up and many others, the Government will tell a lie and not think twice. Just last week the Navy changed the cause of a coastal submarine boat sinking during WWII. They finally decided to take the word of the crew that it was torpedoes by a German sub. The Navy did not want to admit a German sub was that close to us so they lied.

ATF stands for Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. Their agents train 1.5 miles due North from where I am typing right now. They have a real bad ego problem. They walk around in military battle dress uniforms and even special forces uniforms just like the one I worn in Central America when I was doing some stuff for the Government that I don`t talk about.
Why do they need any of this stuff and the attitude to deal with Alcohol and Tobacco or even Firearms. Why did they call in the US Army. Yep their where US Army observers and advisers at Waco.

The David dude may have been crazy and probably was but I think the Government over did it. But I think they have just as much responsibility to protect the innocent people around the event just like they do when our diplomats are taken hostage in foreign countries.
Remember when Iran took our people hostage and we did nothing but get our soldiers killed. We did not take action that got our hostages smoked. And we did not punish Iran the right way when we got them back. Why? Because our Government put Oil in front of that. They did not want to piss off the Arabs.

My original point in all of this is how the Government changes the rules of engagement when it comes to killing us or our families.

I have a different perspective on this then most of you because some of you yourselves have said you have never served in the military or worked directly for the Government. I still get tears in my eyes at football games when they play the anthem. And I still look up at the jets with pride when they peel off for a landing.

Now we are starting to have cameras that will take our pictures when we leave home and mail us a fine. Our cops down here are riding around in 4x4 Ford Expeditions and our Commisioners say we are broke and need to raise the sales tax. When you call the cops they decided if your problem is worth the paper work before they do anything. Things are getting crazy

I have seen dirty laundry that every country has and I don`t like it when the dirt is put on it`s citizen. If you have not gotten any of it on you, then at least have some understanding for the ones that have.

[Bamatech]

First off let me say I think Koresh was mentally unstable.However it has been documented that he had previously reported to the Waco sherrif on a weapons charge.He voluntarily turned himself in.Did anyone ever wonder why the media was present at the time of the raid?My gut instinct is the ATF was wanting publicity to ask for more funding and possibly to increase thier authority.The military was involved in the stand-off.I will never forget the Alabama state flag flying over a Bradley fighting vehicle.That is one I would truly like to forget also.It could have been handled without casualties if left to local officials.
As for the issue of State's rights. If you study your history the last time they were asserted with much enthusiasm it didn't turn out to well.I have no trouble understanding the extra vengance law enforcement has when one of thier own is killed.I would be furious too.That is human nature.However we are supposed to be a nation of laws that are applied equally to all citizens.All I ask is that the Constitution be strictly adhered to by all.Any that do not should face the punishment they deserve.This is still the greatest country ever on this planet.Hopefully with the likes of the members of this board it will remain so.
God Bless America.

[Breeze]

Local Citgo, counter guy is from ??? I cant remember but all he ever says is something like "only in america" he is being sarcastic. I really feel like saying, "if you don't like it here why don't you just leave"

But I am too nice of an American to be RUDE ...